John Swinney's plans to overhaul the delivery of public services do not end with the NHS.

As well as cutting the number of health boards, he wants to cut the number of other public bodies.

He has specifically talked about creating a single environment agency by merging NatureScot, the Scottish Environment Protection Agency and others.

His programme for government document has further suggestions. A single cultural body seems to be another possibility.

Perhaps the trickiest area for reform is local government because it is democratically elected.

It doesn't automatically have to do the Scottish government's bidding and can make quite a fuss if it's pushed around.

To be clear councils are not exempt from the first minister's plans.

When he spoke in parliament Swinney expressed the view that "some of our councils are too small to be strategic and some are too big to be local".

He is interested in creating a regional level of public service delivery without creating another layer of administration or a new group of politicians.

So how might that work?

There already is a model in operation - the Glasgow City Region. It brings together council leaders from across the west of Scotland to make regional economic decisions and investments.

There is no Greater Manchester style metro mayor in overall charge. It's more of a collective leadership.

Swinney has already promised Glasgow City Region an expanded role and formal legal status.

He seems to want the same for other Scottish cities and the programme for government envisages, for example, Edinburgh and Glasgow regions teaming up in future to attract international investment along the M8 corridor.

There could be similar partnership along the M90 if city regions are developed around Aberdeen and Dundee.

This emerging model does not seem so very different to what Andy Burnham is trying to develop across England - without the mayors.

Both the prime minister and the first minister are using similar language around "rewiring" the way the country works.

For Swinney, "rewiring" also means "fewer" local authorities as he told Radio Scotland Breakfast after his plans were published.

There are 32 councils at the moment of all different shapes and sizes, a legacy from a reorganisation in the mid-1990s when regional councils were abolished.

Swinney has not said what he thinks the right number of councils would be. He wants to talk that over with them and others to try and reach a shared view.

He's set a rapid three month timetable for consultation ahead of the Scottish budget and with local government elections looming next May.

The umbrella organisation for Scottish local authorities - Cosla - has called a special meeting of council leaders for Friday 11 September and I believe John Swinney has been invited to attend.

There are already examples of some councils working together to provide shared services.

East and South Ayrshire councils have formed a roads partnership, while North and East Ayrshire councils have a joint economic development service.

Falkirk, Clackmannanshire and Stirling are developing arrangements to share some back office functions.

That does not mean any of these councils or indeed any council in Scotland would readily vote itself out of existence.

Maybe they could be encouraged or incentivised into merging but I have not heard of any specific proposals so far.

The first minister has spoken of a willingness to devolve more economic powers including those that might come to Scotland from Westminster.

He is counting on the UK government not going over his head and has said the prime minister has given him assurances on that.

As well as building up a regional level of service delivery and decision making, Swinney insists he is also interested in "empowering communities" to take more decisions locally.

There is not much detail of that.

One suggestion is that local area committees on existing councils could be given more clout in the areas they cover.

This whole project is supposed to be about services being delivered at the right level to suit the public.

It is also about saving cash through economies of scale where things are done across a region.

In the short term, reorganisation could actually cost money to move offices and pay off surplus chief executives and finance directors.

Unions also fear job losses. The Scottish government has been clear that public sector employment will fall.

There is a great deal to be discussed and debated and any legislation would require some opposition support at Holyrood.

Over time ministers think they can reduce costs, increase efficiency and improve services.

The combination of outcomes would be widely favoured but there are certainly those who doubt the Scottish government's ability to deliver.